Originally by: Jack Gilligan

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Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 16/02/2011 03:59:26

Originally by: Kengutsi Akira

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I dont get why ppl even buy isk in this game when you can get it from CCP in the form of PLEX.
Hm...
Buy it illegitimately and get banned
or
Buy it legally from CCP

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Who the hell is CCP banning?

Right now there is absolutely NO RISK involved in massively making ISK by botting, nor honestly in purchasing ISK. Who the hell is CCP permabanning? That's right, NO ONE, not even people caught red handed as running bots, with irrefutable proof, banned 24 hours then back botting again!

Really, if I were going to buy ISK right now, Don't.

Removed EULA-violating suggestions. Spitfire


What I'd do if I were CCP: Permaban and disband bot alliances. Make it clear that it's the responsibility of alliances to NOT permit bot operations under their tags. Permaban ISK buyers.

Kill the supply AND demand.

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Originally by: yani dumyat

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Edited by: yani dumyat on 17/02/2011 15:30:22

Originally by: Richard Aiel

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Originally by: yani dumyat

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Once gaming sites start running articles mentioning bots in eve (and with the current level of noise they will) the whole paradigm behing eve's marketing, and to a big extent the game itself, will collapse.

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Given that there are literally bots in every mmo, and noone cares in any other mmo about them, bots in an MMO isnt something likely to get front page news anywhere on the net, and nowhere will it get enough coverage to kill EVE

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I didn't say that coverage would kill eve (though too many bots will eventually do so), I said that the paradigm would break down. The whole point of having a single server and free market economy is that the game isn't just pvp it's eve, everyone vs everyone.

The market is the absolute core of the game, it defines everything from the ships you can afford to fly, your ability to wage war, the amount of time you have to spend carebearing to have a decent income etc.

If it gets to the point where someone posts on mmorpg.com or some other forum saying they think that the sandbox, open market and player driven empires look cool, and the next 5 replies are people responding that you cant engage with any of that unless you bot then the paradigm has broken.

Eve is fairly unique among mmo's and one of those unique points is its weakness to botting and the disproportionate affect bots have on every player. If that becomes common knowledge repeated by non eve players then eve is just another space mmo and the free market counts for nothing.

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Originally by: Florestan Bronstein

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Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 17/02/2011 16:15:27

If you would work at CCP and you had the choice between banning 20% of bots and reducing all bots efficiency by 20% what would you do?

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Originally by: Archbeholder

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Edited by: Archbeholder on 17/02/2011 19:08:26

Originally by: Kengutsi Akira

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Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 17/02/2011 18:32:14
Funny thing about the bots, even if all the players leave except the hard core players, more bots will join and more an more plex will be bought so CCP wiull still make money lol
so quitting doesnt even hurt them

to above can i have your stuff?

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Funny thing about the bots, if all players leave there wont be anyone left to pay for plex lol

edit:forgot lol

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Originally by: Superkiller NinjaPirate

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I hope this whole thing will soon or later be published on external gaming magazines or gaming websites ... maybe it's the only way CCP will do "something" about it.

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Originally by: Yana Cova

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if (d) do nothing, let Eve slowly die and focus on 'world of twilight' then CCP will become known as the company that allows macors, bots etc and WOT would just get screwed over fast anyway as people move in to cash in... - huge investment down the drain.

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Originally by: Miss President

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Originally by: Perramas

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CCP doesnt not have to make EVE bot proof to get rid of botting. CCP only has to make the player base truly fear getting caught botting and the botting problem will go away. Enough with the temporary bans, they are not a deterrent. Permanently delete all characters on any account caught botting for any reason the first time and the botting problem will go away.

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Would be nice, but CCP needs all the money they can get for their exit strategy from EVE. It seems they have decided Eve will fall in a year or two, based on their weak punishment of bots and inaction, they also timed the release of Incarna blog when most players are unable to compete with bots and thinking about quitting, as a bone thrown to the players to keep playing. Its a really bad situation for honest players, there are no alternatives to EVE so CCP is taking advantage of this to still collect revenue.

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Originally by: Paul Mustaka Hekard

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Some sort of response from CCP (I mean a credible one; not the platitudes given so far) would be great. It would also be nice to see one of their response that isn't in the form of yellow deletion notice.

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Originally by: Jack Gilligan

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Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 21/02/2011 21:09:09

Originally by: Alexi Komanov

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I wish CCP would just tighten their collective belts and remove all the bots. Yes I know it's not that easy, yes I know the bots will be back but at least it would give us a breather. Unfortunately, thats not going to happen, CCP just loves money too much and if they remove all the bots thats at least half of their subscriptions down the drain, leaving us back at pre-trinity levels of subscribers.

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Sadly you do that and youll lose a huge chunk of your sub base as they go running, screaming "Korean MT farm"
Like I did from STO

Originally by: Jimmy Jazz

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Originally by: Hoya en Marland

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If people begin to recognize EVE as game ruled by bots, macros and RMT-based alliances then it's pretty much over. Honestly, I doubt that CCP has courage for cleaning up this mess.

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Thing is they (people who don't play the game) are already recognising this. I've got a number of friends, avid gamers and sci-fi fans, who won't touch EVE and one of the primary reasons is the reputation for bots being condoned. They didn't get this from me, but from reading about the game on independent sites.

CCP may well be making a rod for their own back with this, because none of those guys are going to touch any other CCP products (DUST, WOD) and I'd guess a fair few EVE players are now questioning whether they will.

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Originally by: Kengutsi Akira

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Dont know that they would honestly. I play a lot of other MMOs and, honestly, EVE isnt widely known and if it is known, its reputation is that of Mos Eisley. The hive of scum and villany. Also, its an old game. Most likely people would chalk it up to the scum killing the game or that it died off because it was old.
I really dont think the rest would come out and if it did, most MMO players would be like "bots? so what every game has em. Theyre not a big deal" not knowing it is a big deal in THIS game cause of the single shard and the way the economy works.
Hell, the CEO of the company that put out Hellgate was snatched up days after that game and that company meteored into the ground, like nothing had happened lol. He works for Cryptic. Bill Roper. The man with the **** midas touch. Everything he touches turns to ****.
I mean its not like ppl kill an MMO an noone ever plays their games anymore, ****, SOE killed SWG (basically) and they got DCUO now, which doesnt look like its failed to sell copies. SADLY, most ppl are sheep in this industry and buy games for the name not the company. Look at the sales of STO when it came out vs what it is now. They had big opening sales but theres noone in the game now cause its crap. They bought into the name of the game, not the company.

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Originally by: Ephemeron

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It's interesting to note that botting really took off when CCP introduced PLEX - paying game money for monthly subscription.

Before that, a person with 20 bots would have to spend $300 a month and risk losing real money when there are bans or disruptions in bot operations.

Now ANYONE with enough hardware can run 20 bots with $0 subscription costs. The bots pay for themselves.

It is precisely this mechanic that caused botting to grow geometrically, restrained only by the hardware limits to run multiple accounts. And they have absolutely no risk of losing money when getting banned. Banning doesn't stop them at all.

Every time you sell a PLEX in game, you are sponsoring botting.

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Originally by: Kuronaga

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Edited by: Kuronaga on 22/02/2011 00:54:15
No one anymore, it seems.

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Originally by: Kuronaga

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Originally by: Kengutsi Akira

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Originally by: Kuronaga

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Edited by: Kuronaga on 22/02/2011 00:54:15
No one anymore, it seems.

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Not trying to be a **** but given the only example I put forth was Blizzard and you said "not anymore" I have to ask "When DID Blizzard value art over money?"

Maybe their first ever game or something but even then, Im betting you there was a price tag attached to it

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I didnt say not anymore, I said no one anymore. Blizzard has never shown me any sterling example of artistic brilliance so I never opted to argue for their sake.

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Quote:

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Early CCP did, and despite them making stupid decisions along the way they did and still do actually listen to their players far more then other MMORPG companies do.

For a long time it seemed like CCP didn't even give a damn about subscriber rate. It feels like a lot of that has changed lately.

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Originally by: Kuronaga

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Wish I knew what happened.

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Originally by: Von Hinten

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Did that, got answer telling me that thex have not the ressources to investigate. gave them 300 botters + links to sites where corps adtvertises for bot freindly 0.0.

oh, and if you post name of botters you will get banned for harrassment, sad, but true.

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Originally by: Pod Amarr

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But that did not stop blizzard from actually taking both in game and legal action against the botters.

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Originally by: General Windypops

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Edited by: General Windypops on 22/02/2011 14:18:20

Originally by: Greniard

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Originally by: Othran

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Originally by: WShatner

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Edited by: WShatner on 22/02/2011 10:12:33
An interesting wee rumour I heard.considering that the EN24 is doing more than any other organisation to try to stamp out botting, apparently CCP are refusing to do an interview with them about the problem, because they're furious about EN24's campaign.... I don't get why CCP aren't supporting this initiative?

Can any of the Eve News guys confirm / deny?

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There's a thread going on over at the site which must not be mentioned which suggests that CCP have less than a month before EN24 blows the whole sorry mess wide open. I hope they do it as CCP have a history of doing nothing about cheating until its in the mainstream media and some of them may pick up on the story.

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If EN24 do what it seems they are planning, it's going to be epic. <3

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Not quite that they're 'furious' with EN24 but CCP have refused me an interview because they claim they need to have a 'cooling off' period before they'll talk to us. It's a shame as I think a simple interview would really help us all to understand what they're planning to do about an issue that's clearly of HUGE importance to their players.

I welcome the opportunity for CCP to put over their side of the story whenever they feel ready.

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Originally by: bustergonads

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Originally by: Ohmunny

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Im sure CCP doesnt want EVE to turn into a bot haven and they probably doing something about it.

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5+ years and no sign of this yet...

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Originally by: Kuronaga

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I'm considering putting toghether a squad whos entire purpose is to do nothing other then set up drag bubbles at every single belt in Stain, effectively locking down an entire region from botters.

If you don't know, Drag bubble > bots

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Originally by: Pr0m Queen

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rofl guys, don't you understand the real problem?
riverini and Majesta Empire are a part of Northern Coalition, this whole deal was brought to you by his site that was already mentioned here, and it all is, in fact, part of media campaign against Drone Region Russian Forces that are currently at war with NC that lasts since dawn of times I might add.

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Originally by: Er Ego

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I'd say don't ban the botters. Simply reset their skillpoints to starting levels, and strip them of all assets except 5000 isk, a noobship and 1 trit. Much more of a kick in the teeth that way.

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Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa

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delay people showing up in local or get rid of it alltogether:
You only see who's there if you scan them down, they talk or you see them visually.

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Originally by: bustergonads

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Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa

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Add a 'not PLEX eligible' flag to bot accounts. They must be paid with hard cash.

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Which would do nothing, they would just use stolen credit card details like they have in other games for years. (not difficult to find online) Just ban the bastards and get it over and done with.

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Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow

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Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 24/02/2011 16:17:58
I've pretty much lost all hope that CCP is going to put any significant effort into resolving the issue of bots. They've ignored this thread for more than 2 months and let it grow to 41 pages, with a spin doc from a GM as the only response. They could have chosen to use the CSM summit as an outlet to give us some reason to believe that they do intend to do something, keeping actual intentions under NDA, but they choose to redact all of whatever conversation of botting took place. CCP Oveur or CCP Zulu could have tossed us a bone in this thread to tell us they see the situation as a problem, and that they will address it. Instead, they've chosen to contain the problem to this thread; the problem being us.

I'm pretty sure that Eve has jumped the shark as a competitive sandbox game. For many, it's already devolved into arcade mode, where the largest assets are disposable and having a character with any skillset is only an auction away; all it takes to have anything is RL cash or a bot and a bit of secure space.

Remembering the effort that ASCN and BoB put into building the 1st titans, and the impact those 1st shipyards had on the game, it's sad to see how trivial fielding the games greatest achievements has become. Sadder stillà if they ever did get rid of bots, it would cement the current power blocks in place, since new alliances would never be able to field enough firepower to challenge the assets of the current alliances.

At this point, I guess I'll keep my afk camper doing her job of keeping one system safe from the scourge, invest the larger part of my reserves into commodities that'll give a nice return if bots are ever removed, and play out the plex I have left. (no stuffs for you, don't ask).

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Originally by: Target Painter

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(ironically, that space is inhabited by primarily PvErs, while "real PvPers" continue to sit in K-space and whine about local)

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Quote:

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Hi, I just wanted to say thanks for the nothing that you've told us or achieved in this area in the last 3 months

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Imagine the uproar if the flaunted 60k concurrent players revealed to be 20k real players (the rest bots). Would not give an healthy picture of the game, wouldn't it? It could even show off that EvE is not growing as much as it's believed.

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Originally by: Brannoncyll

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If CCP do not come down on this hard and soon, the arms race will spiral ever further out of control to the point where anyone who wants to compete must bot.

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Originally by: Helicity Boson

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I will gladly allow myself to be hired by CCP, for the miserable pay they give, to go forth into New Eden and ban every botter personally.

You have my contact details CCP.

love,

Your friendly neighbourhood Terrorist.

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Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium

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Originally by: Consortium Agent

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I have it on good authority that CCP *will* accept petitions for bots. How those petitions are generated is not CCP's problem, but they will accept petitions.

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Ironic that they accept petitions generated by, what is basically, a bot, about bots. What would complete this irony is if the first tier of GM's are themselves bots.

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Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa

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Well, you have to admit Mineral prices will rise, along with the value of loot (it's made of minerals)

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Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa

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Originally by: Kengutsi Akira

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Meta 1-4 not so much. Theyre drop only so that wouldnt matter and that stuff id better than the meta 0 stuff so I actually dont think this stuff would change.

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This holds true for Meta 4 and sometimes 3, but 1 and 2 tend to be only worth their mineral contents.

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Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa

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Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 01/03/2011 00:38:05

Originally by: Kengutsi Akira

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so.... where do I get the BPOs for them? cause so far as Im constantly told you cant an theyre drop only

cause if you cant construct them then they have no mineral contents...
or are you talking reprocessing?
Thats a bit suspect... I have yet to reprocess a arbelest heavy launcher and get 14 plus million in minerals out of it

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BPOs don't normally exist from what I can tell. Capital modules might be an exception. I'm not a researcher or manufacturer.

And yes, I talk about reprocessing. Arbalest is Meta 4 - I said Meta 1 and 2 commonly only cost their value in minerals.
You chose Heavy Launchers as an example, the most skewed item category in Jita, hence, even if the Meta 1 Launcher was worth more than its reprocess:
it's irrelevant since what I said is true for >90% of all common items.

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Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa

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Also, odds are you don't have perfect reprocess (100%, no tax).

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Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa

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You cannot prove wrong what I know to be true. Wink
And I'm not liable for any misinterpretation of generalisation.
My typing time is limited, there's always exceptions in both directions.

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Quote:

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Originally by: Bloody Rabbit Second, governments don't care about a game that can't break a billion in revenue across the globe so, no, there is no government that would care about RMT in a game. Lets focus on the RMT and botting as it effects the players and what the players will do in response if it is not fixed.

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Originally by: Vincent Athena

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CCP Sreegs, thnks for the comment.

One reason there has been so much rage for so long in this thread is your last comment was not a few weeks ago, but almost 3 MONTHS ago, somewhat longer then what most would say is "a few weeks".

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Originally by: Burnharder

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So I did a google on ways to prevent botting and it seems to me that every other MMO has the same problem. Blizzard even sued the maker of a bot and won $6,000,000 in damages (no clue if they collected, or if he's still selling it). It seems to me that without a protected media pathway (where the keys haven't been leaked!), it's pretty much impossible to prevent someone from frapsing the output, ocr'ing it and generating scripts to control the game. Perhaps it's unreasonable to expect action then?

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Originally by: Kireiina

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The technical details of how CCP go about detecting and banning botters isn't really important. They have a lot of information and the capacity to write more anti-botting measures in the game.

What needs to happen is that CCP does *something* to make it clear that they are against botting and willing to invest some resources in making it less lucrative. At the moment their silence can be taken as an implicit acceptance of botting.

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Originally by: EphemeronWithin 1 week of intensive analysis CCP could identify near 100% of all the bot farmers.

Start with the assumption that someone who bots professionally will have multiple accounts.
Check for multiple accounts connected thru 1 IP. That filters out most regular people already.

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Originally by: Ephemeron
Of those that left, get all those that NPC'ed for more than 1 hour in the week.
Of those that left, check if 2+ accounts of same IP have NPCed at the same time (not just 1 ratting, 1 salvaging, but both ratting)

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Quote:

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Of those that left, get all those that transferred isk from farming accounts to any other account.
Of those that left, check if the account that received money was actively played while 2+ other accounts were ratting.

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Originally by: CCP Sreegs

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That doesn't make a single bot go away any more than replying to every post I ever make on the topic with "DUDE YOUR FACE LMAO" or "YOUR WRONG" does.

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Originally by: Ephemeron

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You didn't read to the end. All that stuff just puts you on suspect list. In the end, it all leads to a GM sending you a convo and you either answering it or not. If you answer, nothing happens.

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Originally by: Brannoncyll

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@Kengutsi Akira: CCP Sreegs has kindly spent some of his time responding to our posts. It would be better for us all if we can keep the posts constructive so as not to discourage further communication.

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Originally by: CCP Sreegs

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big meanies.

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Originally by: CCP Sreegs

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big jerks.

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Originally by: CCP Sreegs

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It's a trick I use to remain PC where I replace vulgarity with childhood terms.

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Originally by: Juil

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"CCP's war on bots

CCP has continued it's war on botters and others who break the EULA with 200 3 day warning bans, and 100 permabans occuring, due to EULA breachs, we would like to remind ALL players that we take these breaches seriously, we hope to one day be able to post 'no bans have been given out because every one is playing by the rules' "

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Originally by: CCP Sreegs

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I wasn't referring to you raging duder I was referring to the Unholy Rage project where we banned a few thousand botting accounts. I can also tell you that the playerbase is not and never has been the sole or even the primary source of bot hunting.

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Originally by: Natalia Kovac

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Why does it take a threadnaught or articles from outside media like Evenews 24 or RPS before you guys will even respond to anything?

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Originally by: CCP Sreegs

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this problem was being addressed long before this thread ever existed.
C) This problem was also being addressed long before anyone's blog wrote about it.

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Originally by: Infinity Ziona

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This is such a stupid thread

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Originally by: Grey Stormshadow

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Unfortunately for some people adapting to any kind of boundaries is way too difficult... If there wasn't such people...

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Originally by: Grey Stormshadow

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Originally by: Kengutsi Akira

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Look first at the game you are playing before yelling at ppl about exploiting the grey area

think really hard about that

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Well if this was ment for me... I am not yelling and perhaps you want to share bit further where are you trying to head with this comment ?

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Originally by: Jita Gilligan

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what it was supposed to originally be: A player elected representative group who's job is to police CCP and make sure they are honest. IE: the T20 incident.

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Originally by: Genetically Different

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CCP wont do any thing REAL about RMTs and Marcos for the same reason that Blizard never does anything about them in WOW.

THEY BRING DOLLARS INTO THEIR ACCOUNT.
the whole EVE ecconomy is based on it now. Its to late.

another MMO buggered. I guess Ill start looking for a new one
one that actually does some thing about it..

Wish me luck.

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Originally by: Avila Cracko

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Originally by: IsoMetricanTaliac 2

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Having now been unlucky/lucky enough to experience the edge having an RMT background gives while fighting against known RMT'ing alliances it has become quite apparent that it has more or less ruined the game for those of us who don't wish to take part in it.

There is no way in hell any alliance or Co-Operative in this game will EVER be able to even begin to scratch these known RMT'ers & with them now also basically just going through 0.0 taking anything & everything they want. Things will become even harder for those who want to try to establish in 0.0... Won't be hard if they agree to PAY the RMT'ers to rent the space, but any other way of trying to get in would probably end with the RMT'ers taking all of their assets out of action. The is also happening to established alliances & co-ops as there is just no way of being able to keep up with the resources the RMT'ers are able to throw at things due to the volume of ISK etc they have moving around the place.

It is a shame that CCP have allowed these people to do what they are doing so blatantly, & if people who don't have access to the log files can get evidence then CCP's stories of doing their best to catch them are just that, STORIES/FAIRY TALES.

I know it must be hard for CCP to have to watch these idiots wrecking the game & be in fear of doing anything just in case they all stop playing Problem is in keeping them happy your going to end up losing many many others.

For many the days of EVE are over, for others their final days are coming as they play out what is left on their subscriptions. For myself & a whole lot of the people in the corp/alliance/co-op I am in we have all had enough & are moving on to a game where RMT'ing is not tolerated by ANY players/GM's/Dev's/who evers.

Personally I NEVER thought the end of EVE for so many of us would be due to RMT'ing, as it always seemed to promise something would be done. Now we are able to see just how well those promises were kept it really just isn't worth spending money on a game to help support the RMT'ers.

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+1

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